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VanBullBear
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:21 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:48 pm

I really don't see what's so hard to understand about what Real is trying to say.

The government is trying to balance the BC economy towards a more sustainable equilibrium where people don't have to fight tooth and nail and scrape every penny just to live in this city.

This philosophy is in the very heart of Canada's tax structure. Our provincial and federal income tax is structured in such a way that the more money you make, the higher the tax bracket.
You can either look at this as punishing the higher earners or managing the quality of living for the population as a whole.

Creating exceptions to the rule opens up avenues for loop-holes, furthermore increases the cost of maintenance and execution of the new rules.
You have to look at the big picture if you are managing at the provincial level. If there is a housing crisis in your province, the last thing to worry about is offending people with multiple properties.
 
VanLord
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 318
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:52 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:41 pm

VanBullBear wrote:
I really don't see what's so hard to understand about what Real is trying to say.

The government is trying to balance the BC economy towards a more sustainable equilibrium where people don't have to fight tooth and nail and scrape every penny just to live in this city.

This philosophy is in the very heart of Canada's tax structure. Our provincial and federal income tax is structured in such a way that the more money you make, the higher the tax bracket.
You can either look at this as punishing the higher earners or managing the quality of living for the population as a whole.

Creating exceptions to the rule opens up avenues for loop-holes, furthermore increases the cost of maintenance and execution of the new rules.
You have to look at the big picture if you are managing at the provincial level. If there is a housing crisis in your province, the last thing to worry about is offending people with multiple properties.

I just showed an example where you are punishing a person who's income has remained the same, it hasn't changed, yet her tax burden has almost doubled!  
The government clearly announced this wouldn't impact BC taxpayers, only to find out that it will indeed impact them.  That's not exactly the way our tax system and society was structured to work.  This is in fact a form of an asset tax, are you okay if the government decided to tax your savings the same way?  Many of these people have paper assets that have grown substantially, but it doesn't give them the means to suddenly pay thousands and thousands more in asset taxes.

While these measures may cool the market it certainly doesn't fix the systemic issues that caused the markets to continue spiking higher and higher.


The government is trying to balance the BC economy towards a more sustainable equilibrium where people don't have to fight tooth and nail and scrape every penny just to live in this city.

Most people in this city are doing just fine...Lots of jobs, more assets then ever, but yes the poor need some help and support along with the young people that are trying to get established (I struggled the same way 20+ years ago)  Rent was expensive, and it was tough to find a place, but I managed to pull myself up by the boot straps and make it work, eventually I got a decent paying job and got some promotions and started to get my feet under me.  I know several people in their 20's who are well on their way to being successful and rich, but they did work hard on their educations, established themselves in their career, sacrificed and are saving a ton of money and will be in a position to purchase a property in the near future, even at current prices.  

I personally rent my basement suites for the pretty much the same price as they were 10 years ago and I see the poor choices that tenants are making with how they live, spend and prioritize a certain lifestyle over things like education and advancing their careers.  

You maybe part of the Internet Mob but I will bet that all of the sheeple will turn against these measures in the next 2-4 years when it hits our economy and all the jobs disappear because we killed off our economy, unlike Alberta's problems, BC's economic troubles will be self-inflicted.  Lets wait and see (I'll buy you dinner if I'm wrong).  Can the NDP pull off a miracle and cool housing while keeping the economy growing.  
 
VanBullBear
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:21 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:57 pm

VanLord wrote:
I just showed an example where you are punishing a person who's income has remained the same, it hasn't changed, yet her tax burden has almost doubled!  
The government clearly announced this wouldn't impact BC taxpayers, only to find out that it will indeed impact them.  That's not exactly the way our tax system and society was structured to work.  This is in fact a form of an asset tax, are you okay if the government decided to tax your savings the same way?  Many of these people have paper assets that have grown substantially, but it doesn't give them the means to suddenly pay thousands and thousands more in asset taxes.

While these measures may cool the market it certainly doesn't fix the systemic issues that caused the markets to continue spiking higher and higher.

Hey Vanlord first off thanks for not turning this conversation into banter and giving some thought in your response.

There will be a few stories, such as the example you have given, where people are not able to afford this tax because their capital has grown substantially and they don't have the income to pay for these unexpected taxes. The simple solution to that is to sell your asset that has grown exponentially over the years. This is a non-issue when you are trying to regulate a runaway housing market from a provincial perspective.

There are currently 4.5 million people living in BC, what percentage of this number are going to have this issue vs what percentage is struggling to find living space or overstretching income to pay for rent or mortgage. Lets say there are 2000 (arbitrary number), this accounts for 0.0444% of the province's population.

I think we need to step away from individual examples and look at the province from a high level perspective. When you are managing 4.5million people, you can't focus on how a few thousand people will feel, specially when it's "1st world problems". 

VanLord wrote:
Most people in this city are doing just fine...Lots of jobs, more assets then ever, but yes the poor need some help and support along with the young people that are trying to get established (I struggled the same way 20+ years ago)  Rent was expensive, and it was tough to find a place, but I managed to pull myself up by the boot straps and make it work, eventually I got a decent paying job and got some promotions and started to get my feet under me.  I know several people in their 20's who are well on their way to being successful and rich, but they did work hard on their educations, established themselves in their career, sacrificed and are saving a ton of money and will be in a position to purchase a property in the near future, even at current prices.  

I personally rent my basement suites for the pretty much the same price as they were 10 years ago and I see the poor choices that tenants are making with how they live, spend and prioritize a certain lifestyle over things like education and advancing their careers.  

You maybe part of the Internet Mob but I will bet that all of the sheeple will turn against these measures in the next 2-4 years when it hits our economy and all the jobs disappear because we killed off our economy, unlike Alberta's problems, BC's economic troubles will be self-inflicted.  Lets wait and see (I'll buy you dinner if I'm wrong).  Can the NDP pull off a miracle and cool housing while keeping the economy growing.  

This is not an accurate representation of the province as a whole, most people are far from "doing fine". We can't go by individual experiences because the sample size is not significant enough to mean anything. I'm currently working in a 2-billion dollar project and my office is filled with professionals and we all make 6+ figures. The general consensus in the office is it's extremely difficult to live in Vancouver because of the housing prices. This is coming from a group of highly educated successful professionals (We are all P.Eng with a combination of MBA/Masters/PhD/PMP). But again, this is just a small sample of the population so my story is statistically insignificant. A better source of data is statistics Canada. 

Let's assume a reasonable income is 75,000 annual to be able to rent (not buy) and live in Vancouver. According to 2015 data (i know it's old) this is within the top 16% earners of the population. This means the other 84% is either struggling, living in poor conditions or over extending their budget and likely going in debt. Some simply are unable to afford and move out or live in hostels. Keep in mind that these stats are Canada wide - BC incomes are less in comparison. Please note that this is just a simple study I just punched in some quick numbers - use simply for broad perspective.

I don't think it's fair to expect NDP to grow the economy while cooling house prices either - these conditions fundamentally counter each other. The damage has already been done by the previous government, there is no painless way out of this.

This expectation parallels the following:
Project manager A was given a 1 billion dollar budget to build an tower. Manager A decides to cut cost and get ahead of schedule by buying sub-standard low quality materials, hiring under-qualified workers and excluding quality control activities from the schedule. From the outside, the project looks like it's doing great - ahead of schedule and below budget etc... Then Manager A hands the job to Manager B who is aware of all the wrong doings Manager A has committed.

Would you expect Manager B to be able to fix the issues and problems Manager A caused and stay and budget and schedule? - Not a chance in hell. 

Would you want Manager B to build the building properly before an accident occurs? - of course. But you can't expect him to stay with the original budget and schedule. 
 
VanLord
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 318
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:52 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:08 pm

VanBullBear wrote:
VanLord wrote:
I just showed an example where you are punishing a person who's income has remained the same, it hasn't changed, yet her tax burden has almost doubled!  
The government clearly announced this wouldn't impact BC taxpayers, only to find out that it will indeed impact them.  That's not exactly the way our tax system and society was structured to work.  This is in fact a form of an asset tax, are you okay if the government decided to tax your savings the same way?  Many of these people have paper assets that have grown substantially, but it doesn't give them the means to suddenly pay thousands and thousands more in asset taxes.

While these measures may cool the market it certainly doesn't fix the systemic issues that caused the markets to continue spiking higher and higher.

Hey Vanlord first off thanks for not turning this conversation into banter and giving some thought in your response.

There will be a few stories, such as the example you have given, where people are not able to afford this tax because their capital has grown substantially and they don't have the income to pay for these unexpected taxes. The simple solution to that is to sell your asset that has grown exponentially over the years. This is a non-issue when you are trying to regulate a runaway housing market from a provincial perspective.

There are currently 4.5 million people living in BC, what percentage of this number are going to have this issue vs what percentage is struggling to find living space or overstretching income to pay for rent or mortgage. Lets say there are 2000 (arbitrary number), this accounts for 0.0444% of the province's population.

I think we need to step away from individual examples and look at the province from a high level perspective. When you are managing 4.5million people, you can't focus on how a few thousand people will feel, specially when it's "1st world problems". 

VanLord wrote:
Most people in this city are doing just fine...Lots of jobs, more assets then ever, but yes the poor need some help and support along with the young people that are trying to get established (I struggled the same way 20+ years ago)  Rent was expensive, and it was tough to find a place, but I managed to pull myself up by the boot straps and make it work, eventually I got a decent paying job and got some promotions and started to get my feet under me.  I know several people in their 20's who are well on their way to being successful and rich, but they did work hard on their educations, established themselves in their career, sacrificed and are saving a ton of money and will be in a position to purchase a property in the near future, even at current prices.  

I personally rent my basement suites for the pretty much the same price as they were 10 years ago and I see the poor choices that tenants are making with how they live, spend and prioritize a certain lifestyle over things like education and advancing their careers.  

You maybe part of the Internet Mob but I will bet that all of the sheeple will turn against these measures in the next 2-4 years when it hits our economy and all the jobs disappear because we killed off our economy, unlike Alberta's problems, BC's economic troubles will be self-inflicted.  Lets wait and see (I'll buy you dinner if I'm wrong).  Can the NDP pull off a miracle and cool housing while keeping the economy growing.  

This is not an accurate representation of the province as a whole, most people are far from "doing fine". We can't go by individual experiences because the sample size is not significant enough to mean anything. I'm currently working in a 2-billion dollar project and my office is filled with professionals and we all make 6+ figures. The general consensus in the office is it's extremely difficult to live in Vancouver because of the housing prices. This is coming from a group of highly educated successful professionals (We are all P.Eng with a combination of MBA/Masters/PhD/PMP). But again, this is just a small sample of the population so my story is statistically insignificant. A better source of data is statistics Canada. 

Let's assume a reasonable income is 75,000 annual to be able to rent (not buy) and live in Vancouver. According to 2015 data (i know it's old) this is within the top 16% earners of the population. This means the other 84% is either struggling, living in poor conditions or over extending their budget and likely going in debt. Some simply are unable to afford and move out or live in hostels. Keep in mind that these stats are Canada wide - BC incomes are less in comparison. Please note that this is just a simple study I just punched in some quick numbers - use simply for broad perspective.

I don't think it's fair to expect NDP to grow the economy while cooling house prices either - these conditions fundamentally counter each other. The damage has already been done by the previous government, there is no painless way out of this.

This expectation parallels the following:
Project manager A was given a 1 billion dollar budget to build an tower. Manager A decides to cut cost and get ahead of schedule by buying sub-standard low quality materials, hiring under-qualified workers and excluding quality control activities from the schedule. From the outside, the project looks like it's doing great - ahead of schedule and below budget etc... Then Manager A hands the job to Manager B who is aware of all the wrong doings Manager A has committed.

Would you expect Manager B to be able to fix the issues and problems Manager A caused and stay and budget and schedule? - Not a chance in hell. 

Would you want Manager B to build the building properly before an accident occurs? - of course. But you can't expect him to stay with the original budget and schedule. 

Thanks VanBull - I appreciate your thoughtful response as well, I see your points and can respect what you are saying.  However, the NDP are still a political animal and are probably going to turn out to be no better than the Liberals before them in terms of corruption, mistakes, mismanagement and accountability.  It is unfortunately the nature of our political system...The path they are taking is a dangerous path.  They have already proven to lie, as they clearly stated in the budget that this tax would not target tax-paying BC residents - period.  
Now we see that it actually will target BC tax-paying citizens and the details show quite a dog's breakfast, where you will actually have to fork over the full tax to the government and only get it back as a credit when you file your income tax.  That is quite different than what was announced in the budget and could cause a significant hardship when talking about the huge numbers (2% of assessed value is a significant tax to place on someone year after year).   As you know places like the Gulf Islands are included, these are legitimate cabins / weekend properties which have been in families for decades, to dismiss this as a first world problem and collateral damage isn't right....
Now I will say the latest articles appear to show Carole James backing away from taxing in these scenarios, but it will still target BC tax-paying citizens and will add a fairly significant administrative burden to manage this tax, whereas closing loopholes on existing taxes and targeting the known problems within our existing laws would be a much more effective strategy to start with.  However, the NDP is looking for maximum drama to maintain their toehold on government.
Time will tell if this new plan works, but I truly believe its misses the real problem and won't actually fix what is broken.  Sadly the last government let this fester for far too long and has left the current Project Manager with a no-win situation...but a political response of new taxes is just as wrong.
I do hope I'm wrong, but I'm also worried that they will continue down this path and I fear that I may get caught in this next.  This attitude from Reallyreal and so many people on the Internet that anyone who has property is scum and must have cheated and stole to get what they have, and don't deserve what they have worked to achieve.  And now we can make them into the Governments new piggy bank, is definitely BS.  
I've paid my share of taxes over the years and don't begrudge paying my fair share, which is far more than pretty much anyone else in Canada...The Ultra Rich use all the loopholes to pay very little, while I am stuck in the highest tax brackets (even though I'm still middle class and have to watch how I spend money and save for a rainy day)...I do get pissed when foreigners cheat and steal their way into Canada and then demand the best medical care and use up all our resources with no regard for those who have paid all of their life to achieve goals and be good Canadian citizens.
 I have personally worked hard to build my assets in both real estate and a fairly large stock portfolio.  I've saved my money and invested wisely along the way, yes I have had luck on my side as well, but I've had to deal with a lot of crap over the years, including snaking socks out of plumbing, tenants who skip town without telling me, grow-ops, leaks, tenants who are chronically late with rent.  Cleaning up after Whistler parties and lots of wear and tear from inconsiderate renters.   Now to have entitled jerks say that I should just pay-up and shut-up is going to piss me off and I will fight to the bone to defend what I have built.
Ahh End Rant!!

 
 
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SethM
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 1014
Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 3:32 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:41 am

reallyreal2 wrote:
VanLord wrote:
reallyreal2 wrote:
Squeeking wheels.

Not sure anybody has too much sympathy for people that don't pay tax in BC with multiple properties with one sitting empty.

I guess you didn't read the article or the Min of Finance Info sheet.

I read it.  
Like I said, I don't have sympathy for people that, like the article said, have a $1M recreational property with $100K in income - LOL.

Sell the property or pay the tax - it's simple.  There is no devine right to own a recreational property.  Seriously, how tone deaf do people have to be?  What's next, people complaining about a yacht tax?  I'm sure everybody will rally to your side!

You sound like a socialist. Why should someone with a recreation home have to pay this tax? This is nothing more than a wealth or jealousy tax. It is not the private sector's job to provide rental housing. The NDP are going to kill this economy with their tax and spend policies. This is disgusting. Real Estate is the number 1 driver of the B.C. economy and they want to kill it. This tax is brutal and ridiculous. It won't fly and you will see the NDP out next election if they don't tweak this tax with a major neutering. I can't believe lap dog Andrew Weaver goes along with this tax??? The Greens and NDP are going to kill the real estate market if offshore capital flows into Vancouver are not strong enough to save us.

The NDP have no experience governing an know nothing about economics. 

And I can't believe how they are against job creation. They certainly are not taking care of their union construction voter. They don't like Site C. They don't like a bridge to replace the Deas tunnel, they don't like Kinder Morgan, they don't like LNG (have to keep lap dog Weaver happy), they don't like Skytrain extensions to UBC. etc. Let's turn this Province into a big park and a welfare state and we will let the rich pay for it. 

Horgan is going to be less than a 1 term Premier. He should build the Deas bridge, name it after himself and call it a day.
 
reallyreal2
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 729
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:30 am

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:43 am

SethM wrote:
reallyreal2 wrote:
VanLord wrote:
I guess you didn't read the article or the Min of Finance Info sheet.

I read it.  
Like I said, I don't have sympathy for people that, like the article said, have a $1M recreational property with $100K in income - LOL.

Sell the property or pay the tax - it's simple.  There is no devine right to own a recreational property.  Seriously, how tone deaf do people have to be?  What's next, people complaining about a yacht tax?  I'm sure everybody will rally to your side!

You sound like a socialist. Why should someone with a recreation home have to pay this tax? This is nothing more than a wealth or jealousy tax. It is not the private sector's job to provide rental housing. The NDP are going to kill this economy with their tax and spend policies. This is disgusting. Real Estate is the number 1 driver of the B.C. economy and they want to kill it. This tax is brutal and ridiculous. It won't fly and you will see the NDP out next election if they don't tweak this tax with a major neutering. I can't believe lap dog Andrew Weaver goes along with this tax??? The Greens and NDP are going to kill the real estate market if offshore capital flows into Vancouver are not strong enough to save us.

The NDP have no experience governing an know nothing about economics. 

And I can't believe how they are against job creation. They certainly are not taking care of their union construction voter. They don't like Site C. They don't like a bridge to replace the Deas tunnel, they don't like Kinder Morgan, they don't like LNG (have to keep lap dog Weaver happy), they don't like Skytrain extensions to UBC. etc. Let's turn this Province into a big park and a welfare state and we will let the rich pay for it. 

Horgan is going to be less than a 1 term Premier. He should build the Deas bridge, name it after himself and call it a day.

"Why should someone with a recreation home have to pay this tax?"

They don't have to - they can sell.

But hey - let's put the liberals back in charge of this province.  They did such a great job of managing it.  Look at what happened to ICBC since the NDP took power - $1B loss.  Site C Dam is going to be way over budget - liberals had it running smoothly.  Richmond casinos have been suffering also since the NDP took power -  Stupid government looking into people laundering money... Eby just close your eyes and ears and do your job!
 
VanLord
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 318
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:52 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:39 am

reallyreal2 wrote:
SethM wrote:
reallyreal2 wrote:
I read it.  
Like I said, I don't have sympathy for people that, like the article said, have a $1M recreational property with $100K in income - LOL.

Sell the property or pay the tax - it's simple.  There is no devine right to own a recreational property.  Seriously, how tone deaf do people have to be?  What's next, people complaining about a yacht tax?  I'm sure everybody will rally to your side!

You sound like a socialist. Why should someone with a recreation home have to pay this tax? This is nothing more than a wealth or jealousy tax. It is not the private sector's job to provide rental housing. The NDP are going to kill this economy with their tax and spend policies. This is disgusting. Real Estate is the number 1 driver of the B.C. economy and they want to kill it. This tax is brutal and ridiculous. It won't fly and you will see the NDP out next election if they don't tweak this tax with a major neutering. I can't believe lap dog Andrew Weaver goes along with this tax??? The Greens and NDP are going to kill the real estate market if offshore capital flows into Vancouver are not strong enough to save us.

The NDP have no experience governing an know nothing about economics. 

And I can't believe how they are against job creation. They certainly are not taking care of their union construction voter. They don't like Site C. They don't like a bridge to replace the Deas tunnel, they don't like Kinder Morgan, they don't like LNG (have to keep lap dog Weaver happy), they don't like Skytrain extensions to UBC. etc. Let's turn this Province into a big park and a welfare state and we will let the rich pay for it. 

Horgan is going to be less than a 1 term Premier. He should build the Deas bridge, name it after himself and call it a day.

"Why should someone with a recreation home have to pay this tax?"

They don't have to - they can sell.

But hey - let's put the liberals back in charge of this province.  They did such a great job of managing it.  Look at what happened to ICBC since the NDP took power - $1B loss.  Site C Dam is going to be way over budget - liberals had it running smoothly.  Richmond casinos have been suffering also since the NDP took power -  Stupid government looking into people laundering money... Eby just close your eyes and ears and do your job!

Hey Reallyreal ... At this point you are basically just trolling, and you sound like a pro-trump supporter, when someone says Trump's policy is bad....the response is yeah but Hillary was a crook.  These two things are not mutually exclusive, and its not a valid argument.  The NDP Housing policy can suck and yes the liberals were corrupt and Christy Clark deserved to be booted out of politics.
What the NDP have shown us, is they are making this up as they go and there is a very high probability that this is going to end in disaster for our economy.  Yeah sure everyone can just sell their properties, simple!  How does that solve the systemic issues with our real estate market??  Please answer this question if you want to continue this debate.  What about the alternatives that I have suggested, why is the speculation tax so great, why is this the solution (other than you can sell if you don't like it) 
Last point, then I think I'm done beating a dead horse... Even if the market cools by 10, 20, maybe even 50% it still doesn't make it affordable for the low income earners that everyone is so concerned about.  And if the market does tank and the economy along with it...Those people that are scraping by now, barely able to afford to live in this city will be hurt much more deeply than the upper class and the ultra rich.  The casualties will be the low class as they lose their jobs, reduced hours, inflationary forces taking more of a toll, etc, etc.  They will be the ones hurt, with no safety net to fall back on, while the upper class will weather the storm, it may hurt, but they will survive, meanwhile the Ultra Rich will flee with their bags of money and wait until the next cycle starts, ready to scoop up all the good deals.
----
Looks like Andrew Weaver isn't happy with the NDP either. 
http://vancouversun.com/opinion/columni ... ess-scrums

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Green leader Andrew Weaver. During debate Thursday on legislation to provide the government with supply (“spending authorization”) for the three months starting April 1, he blasted the New Democrats for making up tax policy on the fly.[/font][/size]


[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“I had thought that a speculation tax wasn’t going to apply to British Columbians,” he began. “Silly me for actually listening to the premier and the finance minister say that in media scrums.[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“But then I see an interpretive bulletin that actually says that in fact, if you’re a B.C. resident, you’re getting a tax credit. That’s what the interpretive bulletin says: you’re going to get a tax credit.”[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He cited the example of a British Columbia retiree on a fixed income facing a levy of two per cent on a longtime family vacation property assessed at $600,000.[/font][/size]

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Now that person is going to be charged $12,000 a year as a speculation tax. They’ll get a tax credit, sure, but they’ve got no income on which to apply that tax credit. How’s that a speculative tax?”[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He challenged the arbitrary application of the speculation tax, applied to recreational properties in the Gulf Island but not Whistler, and to secondary residences in Kelowna where those form part of the seasonal rental stock for university students.[/font][/size]

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Weaver’s doubts were compounded by the back and forth between the premier, the minister of finance, and the finance ministry website over the degree to which the tax would impact British Columbians.[/font][/size]

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“We’re frustrated, because we don’t know what the agenda of the government is, we don’t know the direction that they’re going in the housing market, and all they’ve done is signal to the market that it’s going to be chaotic times ahead, because we haven’t articulated what this critical new measure is to broader society,” fumed the Green leader.[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“We feel that what’s happening here is that policy and finance and tax measures are being made up in press scrums. We have got a supply bill that’s made of budget estimates assuming income from a speculation tax whose implementation has literally changed three times since the budget was announced.”[/font][/size]
 
yzfr1
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:35 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:49 am

Getting to complicated, this is not a problem thats isolated to Vancouver and BC Liberals.

They have the same problem in Toronto and other countries all over the world.

Bottom line is people want things to happen to fit their own agendas and narratives. No one gives a crap about the low income earners. You have people who own and people who wish to own.

After the market “crashes” and all of these “dont have 1 million” millennials finaly get to buy something are they going to have the same mentality to lower prices even further so minimum wage earners can afford a house? OR are they going to reverse course and start voting for politics that raise their house value 200%

A crash is the worst thing that can happen to the average person and poor people in general. Crashes is where power is consolaidated by the rich. After 2008 all the banks own the investment banks. If Vancouver RE crashes it be consolidated by rich investors who have capital.

Real estate is one of the few things that can help normal people have social mobility moving up. But whatever... everyone is out to do what’s best for them. Everyone just needs to be more transparent.
 
reallyreal2
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 729
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:30 am

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:29 am

VanLord wrote:
reallyreal2 wrote:
SethM wrote:
You sound like a socialist. Why should someone with a recreation home have to pay this tax? This is nothing more than a wealth or jealousy tax. It is not the private sector's job to provide rental housing. The NDP are going to kill this economy with their tax and spend policies. This is disgusting. Real Estate is the number 1 driver of the B.C. economy and they want to kill it. This tax is brutal and ridiculous. It won't fly and you will see the NDP out next election if they don't tweak this tax with a major neutering. I can't believe lap dog Andrew Weaver goes along with this tax??? The Greens and NDP are going to kill the real estate market if offshore capital flows into Vancouver are not strong enough to save us.

The NDP have no experience governing an know nothing about economics. 

And I can't believe how they are against job creation. They certainly are not taking care of their union construction voter. They don't like Site C. They don't like a bridge to replace the Deas tunnel, they don't like Kinder Morgan, they don't like LNG (have to keep lap dog Weaver happy), they don't like Skytrain extensions to UBC. etc. Let's turn this Province into a big park and a welfare state and we will let the rich pay for it. 

Horgan is going to be less than a 1 term Premier. He should build the Deas bridge, name it after himself and call it a day.

"Why should someone with a recreation home have to pay this tax?"

They don't have to - they can sell.

But hey - let's put the liberals back in charge of this province.  They did such a great job of managing it.  Look at what happened to ICBC since the NDP took power - $1B loss.  Site C Dam is going to be way over budget - liberals had it running smoothly.  Richmond casinos have been suffering also since the NDP took power -  Stupid government looking into people laundering money... Eby just close your eyes and ears and do your job!

Hey Reallyreal ... At this point you are basically just trolling, and you sound like a pro-trump supporter, when someone says Trump's policy is bad....the response is yeah but Hillary was a crook.  These two things are not mutually exclusive, and its not a valid argument.  The NDP Housing policy can suck and yes the liberals were corrupt and Christy Clark deserved to be booted out of politics.
What the NDP have shown us, is they are making this up as they go and there is a very high probability that this is going to end in disaster for our economy.  Yeah sure everyone can just sell their properties, simple!  How does that solve the systemic issues with our real estate market??  Please answer this question if you want to continue this debate.  What about the alternatives that I have suggested, why is the speculation tax so great, why is this the solution (other than you can sell if you don't like it) 
Last point, then I think I'm done beating a dead horse... Even if the market cools by 10, 20, maybe even 50% it still doesn't make it affordable for the low income earners that everyone is so concerned about.  And if the market does tank and the economy along with it...Those people that are scraping by now, barely able to afford to live in this city will be hurt much more deeply than the upper class and the ultra rich.  The casualties will be the low class as they lose their jobs, reduced hours, inflationary forces taking more of a toll, etc, etc.  They will be the ones hurt, with no safety net to fall back on, while the upper class will weather the storm, it may hurt, but they will survive, meanwhile the Ultra Rich will flee with their bags of money and wait until the next cycle starts, ready to scoop up all the good deals.
----
Looks like Andrew Weaver isn't happy with the NDP either. 
http://vancouversun.com/opinion/columni ... ess-scrums

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Green leader Andrew Weaver. During debate Thursday on legislation to provide the government with supply (“spending authorization”) for the three months starting April 1, he blasted the New Democrats for making up tax policy on the fly.[/font][/size]


[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“I had thought that a speculation tax wasn’t going to apply to British Columbians,” he began. “Silly me for actually listening to the premier and the finance minister say that in media scrums.[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“But then I see an interpretive bulletin that actually says that in fact, if you’re a B.C. resident, you’re getting a tax credit. That’s what the interpretive bulletin says: you’re going to get a tax credit.”[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He cited the example of a British Columbia retiree on a fixed income facing a levy of two per cent on a longtime family vacation property assessed at $600,000.[/font][/size]

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Now that person is going to be charged $12,000 a year as a speculation tax. They’ll get a tax credit, sure, but they’ve got no income on which to apply that tax credit. How’s that a speculative tax?”[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He challenged the arbitrary application of the speculation tax, applied to recreational properties in the Gulf Island but not Whistler, and to secondary residences in Kelowna where those form part of the seasonal rental stock for university students.[/font][/size]

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Weaver’s doubts were compounded by the back and forth between the premier, the minister of finance, and the finance ministry website over the degree to which the tax would impact British Columbians.[/font][/size]

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“We’re frustrated, because we don’t know what the agenda of the government is, we don’t know the direction that they’re going in the housing market, and all they’ve done is signal to the market that it’s going to be chaotic times ahead, because we haven’t articulated what this critical new measure is to broader society,” fumed the Green leader.[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“We feel that what’s happening here is that policy and finance and tax measures are being made up in press scrums. We have got a supply bill that’s made of budget estimates assuming income from a speculation tax whose implementation has literally changed three times since the budget was announced.”[/font][/size]

Hey - at least the NDP is trying to do something about it.  If their policies aren't great, that is your opinion.  I personally feel their policies at least are trying to solve the problem - if you think they are making it up as they go along, perhaps they are.  I'd rather they did that than nothing.  
Truth be told -  all politicians lie cheat and are crooked.  They are all bought.  At least with the NDP you know who bought them.  The liberals are just shady.
Weaver is stuck and he knows it.  What's he going to do?  Topple the government and work with the liberals?  Nope - he'll just squeak hoping that greens make more inroads at the next election so he has more leverage.  
And honestly - does anybody think any government can fix this mess.  The time to fix it was 5-10 years ago when all the "sky is falling bears" were telling everyone this is getting out of hand.  Cats out of the bag - now we all have to deal with it.
 
VanLord
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 318
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:52 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:21 am

reallyreal2 wrote:
VanLord wrote:
reallyreal2 wrote:
"Why should someone with a recreation home have to pay this tax?"

They don't have to - they can sell.

But hey - let's put the liberals back in charge of this province.  They did such a great job of managing it.  Look at what happened to ICBC since the NDP took power - $1B loss.  Site C Dam is going to be way over budget - liberals had it running smoothly.  Richmond casinos have been suffering also since the NDP took power -  Stupid government looking into people laundering money... Eby just close your eyes and ears and do your job!

Hey Reallyreal ... At this point you are basically just trolling, and you sound like a pro-trump supporter, when someone says Trump's policy is bad....the response is yeah but Hillary was a crook.  These two things are not mutually exclusive, and its not a valid argument.  The NDP Housing policy can suck and yes the liberals were corrupt and Christy Clark deserved to be booted out of politics.
What the NDP have shown us, is they are making this up as they go and there is a very high probability that this is going to end in disaster for our economy.  Yeah sure everyone can just sell their properties, simple!  How does that solve the systemic issues with our real estate market??  Please answer this question if you want to continue this debate.  What about the alternatives that I have suggested, why is the speculation tax so great, why is this the solution (other than you can sell if you don't like it) 
Last point, then I think I'm done beating a dead horse... Even if the market cools by 10, 20, maybe even 50% it still doesn't make it affordable for the low income earners that everyone is so concerned about.  And if the market does tank and the economy along with it...Those people that are scraping by now, barely able to afford to live in this city will be hurt much more deeply than the upper class and the ultra rich.  The casualties will be the low class as they lose their jobs, reduced hours, inflationary forces taking more of a toll, etc, etc.  They will be the ones hurt, with no safety net to fall back on, while the upper class will weather the storm, it may hurt, but they will survive, meanwhile the Ultra Rich will flee with their bags of money and wait until the next cycle starts, ready to scoop up all the good deals.
----
Looks like Andrew Weaver isn't happy with the NDP either. 
http://vancouversun.com/opinion/columni ... ess-scrums

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Green leader Andrew Weaver. During debate Thursday on legislation to provide the government with supply (“spending authorization”) for the three months starting April 1, he blasted the New Democrats for making up tax policy on the fly.[/font][/size]


[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“I had thought that a speculation tax wasn’t going to apply to British Columbians,” he began. “Silly me for actually listening to the premier and the finance minister say that in media scrums.[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“But then I see an interpretive bulletin that actually says that in fact, if you’re a B.C. resident, you’re getting a tax credit. That’s what the interpretive bulletin says: you’re going to get a tax credit.”[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He cited the example of a British Columbia retiree on a fixed income facing a levy of two per cent on a longtime family vacation property assessed at $600,000.[/font][/size]

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Now that person is going to be charged $12,000 a year as a speculation tax. They’ll get a tax credit, sure, but they’ve got no income on which to apply that tax credit. How’s that a speculative tax?”[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He challenged the arbitrary application of the speculation tax, applied to recreational properties in the Gulf Island but not Whistler, and to secondary residences in Kelowna where those form part of the seasonal rental stock for university students.[/font][/size]

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Weaver’s doubts were compounded by the back and forth between the premier, the minister of finance, and the finance ministry website over the degree to which the tax would impact British Columbians.[/font][/size]

[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“We’re frustrated, because we don’t know what the agenda of the government is, we don’t know the direction that they’re going in the housing market, and all they’ve done is signal to the market that it’s going to be chaotic times ahead, because we haven’t articulated what this critical new measure is to broader society,” fumed the Green leader.[/font][/size]
[size=100][font=BentonSans-Regular, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“We feel that what’s happening here is that policy and finance and tax measures are being made up in press scrums. We have got a supply bill that’s made of budget estimates assuming income from a speculation tax whose implementation has literally changed three times since the budget was announced.”[/font][/size]

Hey - at least the NDP is trying to do something about it.  If their policies aren't great, that is your opinion.  I personally feel their policies at least are trying to solve the problem - if you think they are making it up as they go along, perhaps they are.  I'd rather they did that than nothing.  
Truth be told -  all politicians lie cheat and are crooked.  They are all bought.  At least with the NDP you know who bought them.  The liberals are just shady.
Weaver is stuck and he knows it.  What's he going to do?  Topple the government and work with the liberals?  Nope - he'll just squeak hoping that greens make more inroads at the next election so he has more leverage.  
And honestly - does anybody think any government can fix this mess.  The time to fix it was 5-10 years ago when all the "sky is falling bears" were telling everyone this is getting out of hand.  Cats out of the bag - now we all have to deal with it.

Thanks for providing a somewhat meaningful comment, I can debate all day, but I need something to work with ;-)  Although I still don't hear any specific reasoning about the speculation tax and why its a good course of action.  This is after all what this specific topic is talking about.  
Your position is their policies are at least trying to solve the problem (and screw anyone that has more than one property)...my position, along with many others including many homebuilders and economists is that some of these policies will do more harm than good and won't actually solve any of the problems that need to be corrected.  Particularly the so called Speculation Tax and the emerging details of how they plan to implement it.
The NDP with the help of Geoff Meggs packaged up the City of Vancouver's empty homes tax and called it a speculation tax.  The Empty Homes Tax is turning out to be largely unsuccessful and will do nothing to ease any of the problems.  Most of the city of Vancouver's policies have directly lead to the so-called crisis and their current policies are also continuing to make it worse, while they continue to pretend they want to fix the problem...except they are all riding off into the sunset after a disastrous 10 years.  Except Geoff Meggs, who left the sinking ship to lead the NDP into the promised land.
I for one will be ready for the downturn, and even though I would prefer to divest and quietly ride off into the sunset, I'll be ready to double down at the start of the next market cycle, which will coincide with the destruction of the 1 term NDP gov.
If I'm wrong and they get re-elected and actually make positive changes that lead to healthy solution to the current corruption and speculation, then I'll buy you dinner too!! 
 
 
User avatar
thompson2
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:37 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:33 pm

rofina wrote:
I ask you: If illicit, un-taxed, foreign capital is a majority cause of the issue we face. How does punishing Plumber John, who has had a family cabin on a Gulf Island for 30 years get us closer to addressing any of the core issues? 

+ I am with you! 
by the way I think the majority cause of the issue is the Fed's money printing machine. :lol:
 
rofina
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 1551
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:39 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:47 pm

thompson2 wrote:
rofina wrote:
I ask you: If illicit, un-taxed, foreign capital is a majority cause of the issue we face. How does punishing Plumber John, who has had a family cabin on a Gulf Island for 30 years get us closer to addressing any of the core issues? 

+ I am with you! 
by the way I think the majority cause of the issue is the Fed's money printing machine. :lol:

Thompson! Good to see you still around!
Must have made a lot of money on your Vancouver condos these last couple years!
 
User avatar
thompson2
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:37 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:06 pm

rofina wrote:
thompson2 wrote:
rofina wrote:
I ask you: If illicit, un-taxed, foreign capital is a majority cause of the issue we face. How does punishing Plumber John, who has had a family cabin on a Gulf Island for 30 years get us closer to addressing any of the core issues?

+ I am with you!
by the way I think the majority cause of the issue is the Fed's money printing machine. :lol:

Thompson! Good to see you still around!
Must have made a lot of money on your Vancouver condos these last couple years!

yeah, Rosina.  Also bought several highrise units in surrey central, I am quite happy with the appreciation there ....and rent is on fire too. 
Oh Lord, could you kindly split your love a little to people like reallyreal, please?  :P
 
User avatar
SethM
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 1014
Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 3:32 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:30 am

This article nails it. The daft NDP has to stop attacking demand. We need more supply. Municipal approvals are way to slow. Their bottle neck is causing the price surges. The NDP  and Greens will kill real estate here and the economy. 

https://biv.com/article/2018/03/foreign ... ng-program
 
User avatar
SethM
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 1014
Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 3:32 pm

Re: Speculation tax ! Finally

Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:33 am

NDP real estate tax no different than Trump's wall. It is utterly ridiculous:

https://biv.com/article/2018/03/bc-hous ... -211236417

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