Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

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Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby jesse1 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:04 pm

http://housing-analysis.blogspot.ca/201 ... -hpis.html

To gain some perspective I decided to overlay the Case Shiller and Teranet house price indexes for direct comparison. The CS and Teranet HPIs use similar methodologies, tracking same-sales pairs to formulate an aggregate house price index, that is mostly independent of sales mix. The two measures are, for the most part, apples to apples and one of the best gauges available for house prices.

The Teranet and Case Shiller indexes are assigned the value of 100 at a particular date, however housing market cycles between regions and countries can be advanced or delayed based on local and macroeconomic factors. Here I propose rescaling the indexes based on their trough values and, for clarity of graphing, aligning the price peaks as shown below along with a nominal 2%, 3%, and 4% trendlines.

Image

Why would we look at troughs? In this particular case most price troughs occurred in the 1990s, an era of positive real rates and, according to Professor Shiller's long-term analysis, a period where house prices are aligned with their century-long trend. Canada, arguably, due to similarities in its economy to the United States, would have had similar sentiment in its housing market under capital conditions at the time.

The graph above indicates that speculative excesses can exceed by multiples the trough, therefore using a median or mode measure of the long-run average given there was obviously mis-pricing during that time, would tend to skew any data used as a baseline. A trough, on the other hand, I argue is governed more by rentier-seeking investors and relatively little in the way of speculative activity.

The above graph indicates that while Vancouver (and Montreal too!) is now above any current valuations of presented American markets, it has achieved nowhere near the excesses wrought by said markets. It could be argued that Vancouver's trough is lower than presented (its "trough" presented here occurred in 1998) but even so this would not significantly move its rank to the likes of San Diego, San Francisco, or Los Angeles.

Are Canadian and American markets directly comparable? I would argue, as presented, yes they are, insofar as the investment climate in these locales are roughly similar: if it's true that troughs are governed by baseline investor interest we would expect similar floors and the tax treatments and inherent risks of properties for investors are roughly equivalent. Las Vegas, Phoenix and Miami have oversupply problems and were hit particularly hard, to the point where they are approaching undervaluation; the markets of LA, San Diego, and Seattle -- coastal cities with growing metro populations -- have been slower to fall and would have appreciation higher than inland areas due to increasing land utility.

A note about comparing HPIs. Price levels do not tell us much without knowing their earnings potential. Vancouver has always had a high price-income ratio, in part due to future land utility improvements. Looking at aggregate market prices through HPIs is useful but won't directly tell us much about individual property profitability.

In summary, while Vancouver's appreciation from trough is significantly above inflation, it did not experience anywhere near the amount of price distortions in certain US markets. Vancouver and Montreal are currently the most highly priced metropolitan areas in North America based on that measure and while not achieving the insanity we saw Stateside, now find themselves the leaders.
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby eyesthebye » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:34 pm

Vancouver doesn't look so bubbly on this chart.

Check out the US steep rise with some HPI at 375% prior to correction - and most over 300%

The only steep Canadian city was Calgary - no coincidence it's really the only Canadian city whose charting looks like a US city
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby Taipan » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:07 pm

Good post Jesse. Ill look at this post and rerun my numbers and have a look at it.

Quick comment.

So fall in both USA and Canada to trough in 2008 = 100

USA market never recovered after the fall from peak to trough.

Whereas canadian real estate not only recovered from the 2008 fall they massively exceeded it.

Consequently they may only now be reaching their peak.

Interesting graph but a false premise. Certainly worth discussing.
Last edited by Taipan on Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby vancouverowner » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:10 pm

Great stuff Jesse. Purely conjecture, but Calgary's index offers possible guidance for our market.
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby eyesthebye » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:30 pm

vancouverowner wrote:Great stuff Jesse. Purely conjecture, but Calgary's index offers possible guidance for our market.



Calgary scenario is possible.
Vancouver 2008-2011 is just as likely
Every US city presented is already not possible since the rise in Vancouver is not nearly so steep.
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby jesse1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:51 am

With all the caveats mentioned. Vancouver is still talking a 150% gain in 10 years.

Here is a re-scaled graph, instead using 1990 as the "trough" instead of 1998:
Image
Last edited by jesse1 on Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby Taipan » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:36 am

This is your standard chart showing US citys v Canadian cities in real time per month.

Image

Ok lets delay the data for Canada just 12 months and overlay.

So the data for the USA starts on January 2000, and matched against that is Canada January 2001. In other words your 12 months behind the USA, but the mealtdown occurs at the same time.

Whats that look like?

Image

Look at that. Maybe Vancouver really isnt special.

What a star performer. Look at the spot light pointing straight at Vancouver. Its in a class of its own these days.

And so far to fall. Im sorry ETB - here is a tissue to clean up your spilt coffee. Looks like a hell of a bubble to me.
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby jesse1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:07 am

Taipan, the 100 gauge is an arbitrary baseline, it speaks nothing to valuations before or after that point. If a market were to have a speculative bubble time shifted relative to another (say like Vancouver's compared to San Diego's), that would mean that the baseline of 100 for San Diego is taken at a point when valuations were already starting to go skyward. Vancouver, on the other hand, didn't start to hit the fan until a few years after its baseline=100 marker. That means we are comparing on different scales. What my analysis was attempting to do was to calibrate these differing scales relative to troughs, which I posited would be a better baseline than using the median or mode -- which tend to become skewed when a speculative bubble occurs -- and certainly better than comparing based on an arbitrarily-determined baseline picked by the indexes. I used the 1990s as a baseline gauge based mostly on previous Shiller analysis on long-term trends but Vancouver is anomalous in many senses, most notably its valuations in the 1980s were lower than the 1990s by a stark amount, such that we could not overlay a similar Shiller-type long-term analysis over valuations in the 1990s and conclude that Vancouver's "baseline" is the same as US cities.

I graphed above Vancouver using 1990 as a baseline instead of 1998. That's a big question mark for me: if Vancouver is in a long-run secular bout of speculation, lasting over 20 years now, that bodes horribly for the next few years. One thing that keeps me humble is that the length and magnitude of speculative bubbles will vary widely and we cannot accurately predict how severely things can change without taking a multi-generational view of asset values. A key metric to watch for me is the condo market. Same sales in that arena will be the bellweather for Vancouver's true self.
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby Taipan » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:49 am

Fair enough Jesse.

What i was trying to was to compare the plunges.

Now US house price plunge started before the GFC. The fall in house prices caused the GFC.

The seizing of the financial system.

So cause and effect.

In this case we had a US property bubble causing GFC1, which then caused a quick crash in the Canadian market.

The US market couldn’t crash at GFC1 because it caused it. Eg You couldn’t have the cause creating the effect and then looping back to create a new cause.

However what we do see is the divergence between USA and Canadian markets.

We know why - massive intervention by the Canadian market to flood the market with money. Credit bubbles always cause asset bubbles and in this case the Canadian property bubble. Effectively pouring petrol on a fire and wondering why the fire became bigger.

While the Canadian government is bit by bit winding these excesses back, I still think it will be a GFC2 which will crunch you back to reality. Governments, bureaucrats and bankers all believe they have got the economic cycle sorted and can sell the crates of shit covered with xmas paper as something worthwhile. Your average person can smell the stink, but they continue to be assured that everything is all right by the media. The message is, if we repeat over and over again that everything is OK, then the stupid people will believe it.

But the one thing they can’t control is a black swan event which side swipes them as they struggle to keep it all together. And once out of control this will get very big very quickly.

Enjoyed this interesting comment over at Zero Hedge today . Dueling Economic Banjos Offer No Deliverance

Now one of the reasons i post to this forum is because your mainstream media must be having a behind the scenes torrid romance as they continue to report positive property stories as news. So when i read this I saw significant parallels.

Americans Canadians have been listening to the mainstream financial media’s song and dance for around four years now. Every year, the song tells a comforting tale of good ol’ fashioned down home economic recovery with biscuits and gravy. And, every year, more people are left to wonder where this fantastic smorgasbord turnaround is taking place? Two blocks down? The next city over? Or perhaps only the neighborhoods surrounding the offices of CNN, MSNBC, and FOX? Certainly, it’s not spreading like wildfire in our own neck of the woods…

Many in the general public are at the very least asking “where is the root of the recovery?” However, what they should really be asking is “where is the trigger for collapse?” Since 2007/2008, I and many other independent economic analysts have outlined numerous possible fiscal weaknesses and warning signs that could bring disaster if allowed to fully develop. What we find to our dismay here in 2012, however, is not one or two of these triggers coming to fruition, but nearly EVERY SINGLE conceivable Achilles’ heel within the foundation of our system raw and ready to snap at a moment’s notice. We are trapped on a river rapid leading to multiple economic disasters, and the only thing left for any sincere analyst to do is to carefully anticipate where the first hits will come from.

Four years seems like a long time for global banks and government entities to subdue or postpone a financial breakdown, and an overly optimistic person might suggest that there may never be a sharp downturn in the markets. Couldn’t we simply roll with the tide forever, buoyed by intermittent fiat injections, treasury swaps, and policy shifts?

The answer……is no.

No economy has ever endured the circumstances that ours endures now without reaching a point of maximum tension; that inevitable moment when the structure can no longer hold under the weight of the cold hard fundamentals. Regardless how hard we try to paddle backwards, in the end, the boat WILL eventually tip over the waterfall, and the results will not be pretty.

What we are witnessing so far this spring is a world on edge, cloaked by a series of seesaw events that confuse the citizenry and obscure the truth of our circumstances. When confronted with people who embrace the recovery lie, or allow the sweet talking mainstream dialogue to hypnotize them, I sometimes find myself reminded of the naïve canoe vacationers of the infamous film ‘Deliverance’. Their happy-go-lucky attitude at the beginning of their adventure, heightened by a friendly battle of strings with the locals before departure, leaves them oblivious to the impending danger. To the other side of existence. A lethal and carnivorous force inherent not only in man, but in nature, in matter, in everything. And, of course, we all know how they end up paying the price for their ignorance…

And that is the future for property owners in Vancouver and other Canadian cities still caught in the bubble. They will pay the ultimate price for wishing and hoping that everything will turn out OK. TV repeats that message program after program, with everything neatly resolved for the central characters each hour.

Real life doesn’t give a shit, and it will rape you and destroy you and walk away with a smile on its face amused at your naivety and misery.
Geezer: "What if somebody listened to Taipan and doesnt buy".

Well, they will thank their lucky stars, that they arent one of the thousands of miserable souls who cant sell their properties in 2013!
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby jesse1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:20 am

But the one thing they can’t control is a black swan event which side swipes them as they struggle to keep it all together

Certainly someone will uncover a "black swan" a couple of years after it occurred. Hoocoodanode?!?!?

I limit my exposure to Zero Hedge. To many "Zieverts" are bad for long term financial health. ;)
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby vancouverowner » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:25 pm

eyesthebye wrote:
vancouverowner wrote:Great stuff Jesse. Purely conjecture, but Calgary's index offers possible guidance for our market.



Calgary scenario is possible.
Vancouver 2008-2011 is just as likely
Every US city presented is already not possible since the rise in Vancouver is not nearly so steep.


I'm bearish(ish), so for me Calgary *is* the bull case. 10-15% correction, 5% bounce and then muddle sideways and allow inflation to catch up. But I've been bearish so long most of my most of my friends have (wisely) stopped listening to me (and I own the majority of my home) so take it for what it's worth.
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby semven » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:00 pm

The US market couldn’t crash at GFC1 because it caused it. Eg You couldn’t have the cause creating the effect and then looping back to create a new cause.


But it did...
This is Exactly what made the US crash worse than Canada's. The financing for homes was different. Fannie and Freddy had their issues with jumbo loans, but the ARM loans were like Terminator 2. When the Homeowners couldn't refinance (underwater) because the original NINJA and HELOC loans had already created a raft of foreclosures. The holders of toxic debt were in such a hurry to get the debt off their books that they chased everybody into the basement on price. This hasn't happened in Canada. So dont pay so much attention to the plunges.
I wonder too..(respectfully) when you take all these Cities and graph them together if there are not other metrics to consider as well. Say for instance Calgary or Edmonton being directly reliant on the health of the Oil Patch. Vancouver admittedly has a lot of foreign investment (HAM) swinging the numbers on its market, would the health of the Asian economy not be a direct force on this City?
These cities all have their own peculiarities...and all of them can say "It`s different here"
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby Taipan » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:25 pm

Canada had liar loans, youve got CHMC, youve got 100% financing. You have had 40/0, 35/5 loans. You have all the things that the USA had.

Youve been listening to too much of your own media, telling you its different here when it isnt

Those are finance credit issues the same as the USA and everywhere else in the world. Thats why all of Canada has gone up in the past.

However now the contraction has started and like a stone thrown into a pond causing waves to radiate out, these waves are contracting back into the centre.

That is why regional areas are already feeling it hard.

And those listings continue to climb. Hell If had been in the market a year ago, (thankgoodness I wasnt), I would have want to have sold out last summer.

And the numbers continue to grow.

April 10th, 2012 at 5:36 pm

New Listings 403
Price Changes 211
Sold Listings 159

TI:16475

http://www.laurenandpaul.ca
Geezer: "What if somebody listened to Taipan and doesnt buy".

Well, they will thank their lucky stars, that they arent one of the thousands of miserable souls who cant sell their properties in 2013!
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby eyesthebye » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:04 pm

vancouverowner wrote:
eyesthebye wrote:
vancouverowner wrote:Great stuff Jesse. Purely conjecture, but Calgary's index offers possible guidance for our market.



Calgary scenario is possible.
Vancouver 2008-2011 is just as likely
Every US city presented is already not possible since the rise in Vancouver is not nearly so steep.


I'm bearish(ish), so for me Calgary *is* the bull case. 10-15% correction, 5% bounce and then muddle sideways and allow inflation to catch up. But I've been bearish so long most of my most of my friends have (wisely) stopped listening to me (and I own the majority of my home) so take it for what it's worth.



Calgary has not shortage of land. They just continue to annex and swallow up more farmland for building detached homes.
The more I think about it the less I think Vancouver prices could ever stgnate for very long.
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Re: Comparing Vancouver HPI to Other Cities

Postby jesse1 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:49 pm

the less I think Vancouver prices could ever stgnate for very long

Agreed there. Stagnation is unlikely.
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