Buying for Value – A bears tale!

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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby gobigorgohome » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:23 pm

Taipan wrote:Now about the euro meltdown!. It hasn’t been avoided. It’s still coming, and it will hit the entire world’s financial markets.
We should have had the unravelling in March. Greece technically did default. Merkel and Sarkozy papered over the wire cage of manure and said it’s all ok. April May is elections in France and Sarkozy maybe toppled, by socialist or extreme socialist candidates. Be very afraid if that happens.


Yes, there are many problems in the world today. Granted, it has always been this way throughout history, but Zerohedge hasn't always been around to fill our heads with conspiratorial doomsday scenarios. Yet, I'll still have my comfortable government job and home based small business. The wife will still have her IT job. Europe could conflagrate and I'll still go to work every day, sleep well at night, and enjoy my weekends in this beautiful city. Life goes on. I suspect my sentiments are shared by many Vancouverites, and the millions of people that are lined up around the world to move here.

Taipan wrote:But you bulls go back to buying bubble properties. I certainly don’t want shallow thinking people with any capital left after this all melts down. And that is where most of you will be. Look straight across the border to the 300 million people to your south.


Didn't you just buy a recreational property in the BC interior? Me thinks you are the biggest bull here? :?:

Taipan wrote:See you guys are happy to be fed the info that the government and the realtors and developers want you to know.


That's an embarrassing assumption on your part and is filled with vague conspiracy/paranoia.

Taipan wrote:You have great difficulty thinking for yourselves and analysing the real state of affairs don’t you.

You’re like lemmings, merrily running along and one of these days you’ll all go over the cliff together.


Maybe if I eagerly read every article on Zerohedge like gospel I could be an intellectual heavyweight like you? :wink:
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby Taipan » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:26 pm

It’s also been nice to over time to get numerous PM from others who appreciate that there is an alternative view and how I had raised issues they had not considered, didn’t know about or was unusual between market places and the property industry in general.

To those who do post to me - i do appreciate your thoughts and comments. Please keep them coming I will reply vie this forum and pm.

I remain forever wary and watchful of bulls contacting me for other nefarious reasons.

And therefore as an insider I will retain ongoing anonymity because of previous threats. Sometimes the truth is extremely threatening!
Geezer: "What if somebody listened to Taipan and doesnt buy".

Well, they will thank their lucky stars, that they arent one of the thousands of miserable souls who cant sell their properties in 2013!
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby Warren12 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:44 am

Time to invest in tin foil futures, there's obviously a high demand around here.
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby Taipan » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:20 am

Tell me Warren12 have you any qualifications in economics? Have you ever studied economics?

Secondly name me any country in the history of the world who started up the printing presses, in the process creating a fiat or worthless currency and it didnt end up in hyperinflation and collapse? Both europe and US are well down that road.

At what point do countries debt to equity ratio's reach before they start going broke? - No we get smart comments about tinfoil hats.

This is extremely important stuff. The smart will understand and position themselves, the dumb, apathetic, and uneducated will just be swept away in the flotsam of life.

Trying telling the people of Greece and Spain with unemployment now running at over 20% and youth unemployment running at 50% that debt isnt a problem.

One of the most feared issues on this forum is interest rates rising. Why? Because people have over borrowed, 100% 95% and at record low interest rates.

And if interest rates jump 1% or 2% people cant pay their mortgages.

That massively affects house prices.

So whats todays little lesson. Well remember Greece and how they supposedly saved and it didnt go broke, (well it actually defaulted - but the politicians made up words and pretended that Greece didnt default.)!

Well they scrambled hard to save Greece and just got there. Germany wanted to force Greece out, but amazingly they took the pain and opted to stay in.

Now we are onto Spain and the spanish are shitting themselves. This is a rerun of Greece all over. But Spain is 10x the size. Right behind it is Italy.

All because of too much debt, something the good citizens of Vancouver know all too well!


We are not entirely sure what a "resolved" Eurozone crisis is supposed to look like, but we are pretty sure it is not supposed to look like the chart below...


Image

A resolved crisis is not supposed to feature soaring Spanish bond yields and rising credit-default swap prices. In fact, the squiggles on this chart below may be the most disturbing images to emerge from Spain since Salvador Dali's melting clocks.

Less than two months after the financial leaders of the Western World - you know who you are - informed the rest of us that they had vanquished the euro crisis, it has flared up anew in the "peripheral" credit markets of Europe. Peripheral is the polite term for the P.I.I.G.S. nations of Portugal, Italy, Ireland Greece and Spain.

In Spain, the yield on 10-year government bonds jumped to nearly 6% - the highest level since early December. Meanwhile, the price of insuring a 5-year Spanish government bond against a default (i.e. the 5-year CDS price), jumped to within a whisker of a new record high.

These are not the data points of confidence and comfort; these are the data points of resurgent distress. Bond yields don't soar when investors trust the borrower; and default insurance doesn't jump to near-record levels when investors are confident they will be repaid.

Bond yields and CDS prices are climbing throughout the financial markets of the peripheral European nations. Meanwhile, share prices on the European continent are tumbling. Despite a brisk start to the year, several European bourses have slipped into the red for 2012.

Perhaps this rocky price action reflects some "healthy" profit-taking and nothing more. On the other hand, healthy profit-taking can easily morph into a great big bear market when the underlying fundamentals are as suspect as the balance sheets of the PIIGS governments.

In other words, as we have mentioned more than once in this column, bankrupt entities tend to go bankrupt. So any time an investor lends money to an insolvent entity, he is playing a game of chicken...or as they would say in Spain, un juego del pollo.

Seven weeks ago, Dan Amoss, the editor of the Strategic Short Report, predicted that this particular juego del pollo was far from over. Even though the mainstream financial news agencies were busy cheering the end of the euro crisis, Dan was warning his subscribers to prepare for the next phase of it.

In light of this week's dismal price action in Spain and elsewhere, Dan's comments from March 2 seem both prescient and pertinent.


What would be the price of Vancouver real estate if borrowing costs are at 6%-7%? A hell of a lot lower. Thats whats facing Spain right now.

Both the FED and the ECB are accutely away how quickly this could turn into a contagion throughout the worlds financial systems. And this could happen very quickly like last time and they will fight very hard to stop it, but sometimes these avalanches cant be stopped.

Its very obvious that many posters who are bullish on Vancouver real estate, delusionally believe that Vancouver is cut off from the rest of the world. They cant join the dots and understand.

So for those who are having trouble with this issue here is an early primer. You join the dots in sequential order.

Image
Geezer: "What if somebody listened to Taipan and doesnt buy".

Well, they will thank their lucky stars, that they arent one of the thousands of miserable souls who cant sell their properties in 2013!
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby eyesthebye » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:18 am

"Taipan"]

Secondly name me any country in the history of the world who started up the printing presses, in the process creating a fiat or worthless currency and it didnt end up in hyperinflation and collapse? Both europe and US are well down that road.


you do realize you're arguing for hard asset purchases like real estate, don't you?
the cure for higher prices is moving to a destination with lower prices
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby eyesthebye » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:20 am

"gobigorgohome"

Didn't you just buy a recreational property in the BC interior? Me thinks you are the biggest bull here? :?:


+1
buddy has species confusion.
the cure for higher prices is moving to a destination with lower prices
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby gobigorgohome » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:13 am

Taipan wrote:Its very obvious that many posters who are bullish on Vancouver real estate, delusionally believe that Vancouver is cut off from the rest of the world. They cant join the dots and understand.


And yet somehow Sun Peaks continues to remain "cut off from the rest of the world." :?:

I tip my hat to you Taipan, as your entire argument is a tautological missive (i.e. Vancouver real estate will collapse, because this won't end well, or Vancouver real estate will collapse because they cant join the dots and understand), and you have seemingly convinced yourself that Macro global trends in places like Spain and Greece will impact Vancouver specifically, while places like Sun Peaks will stabilize based on an arbitrary line you have drawn on an xy axis.

Besides, you do realize that the majority of home-owners in Vancouver will just simply rent out their places instead of selling at a loss right? I repeat, the vast majority of people will simply not sell for less than they paid and will hold their investment long-term. A significant portion of buyers in Vancouver also make cash purchases. For many, a million dollar investment in an east side home can net a rental cash flow of 24,000+ a year. It's not a great return sure, but for high net worth individuals it does bring portfolio diversity, and it has the upside of being a hard asset located in a AAA credit rating jurisdiction with long-term appeal. For China's million+ millionaires, for example, it's simply an investment in their children's future that a fixed income portfolio cannot match. Thus, you will have price support so that when prices do ebb this year, as they probably will, new buyers will enter the market bolstering prices. To confirm, Vancouver isn't Madrid or Athens, and does not a single A credit rating.

Taipan wrote:Seven weeks ago, Dan Amoss, the editor of the Strategic Short Report, predicted that this particular juego del pollo was far from over. Even though the mainstream financial news agencies were busy cheering the end of the euro crisis, Dan was warning his subscribers to prepare for the next phase of it.


OMG, a short seller is predicting gloom and doom? Stop the presses! It's time to liquidate my real estate in Vancouver! Spain just got downgraded! :roll:
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby semven » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:46 am

Taipans on the ropes again.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

BTW Taipan.Leave the Easter Bunny out of this. He has nothing to do with your delusions of Grandeur.
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby timber2012 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:47 am

eyesthebye wrote:
"gobigorgohome"

Didn't you just buy a recreational property in the BC interior? Me thinks you are the biggest bull here? :?:


+1
buddy has species confusion.


He's a value buyer. He doesn't care about whether the market is going up or down anymore because he bought where he felt there was value.
George Carlin once said "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby semven » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:28 pm

And therefore as an insider I will retain ongoing anonymity because of previous threats. Sometimes the truth is extremely threatening!


Deluded?

Due to the number of people who do not believe that I am who I profess to be, I will keep my true identity hidden. People have nefarious reasons to try to find out who II am and where I live...Its true...Theyre after my Lucky Charms
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby Taipan » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:25 pm

eyesthebye wrote:
"Taipan"]

Secondly name me any country in the history of the world who started up the printing presses, in the process creating a fiat or worthless currency and it didnt end up in hyperinflation and collapse? Both europe and US are well down that road.


you do realize you're arguing for hard asset purchases like real estate, don't you?


And what happened when hyperinflation set in? Interest rates went through the roof. Now if you purchased like me at 2005 values with cash and no debt youll be fine. The rich become richer.

But if you borrowed over 80% LVR this century well you are screwed. A rerun of the late 70's and 80's when interest rates jumped to 17% will see you bankrupt.

Whats housing prices to income in Vancouver? 11x. 11x! You wont have the income to service the loans. No different from Greece, Spain and Italy now face, Japan will face in the next few years and the USA in 4-5 years if not sooner.

Now if you had LVR of 4.5 or less you may have a chance!

What Led to the High Interest Rates of the 1980s?
Geezer: "What if somebody listened to Taipan and doesnt buy".

Well, they will thank their lucky stars, that they arent one of the thousands of miserable souls who cant sell their properties in 2013!
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby gobigorgohome » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:59 pm

Taipan wrote:And what happened when hyperinflation set in? Interest rates went through the roof. Now if you purchased like me at 2005 values with cash and no debt youll be fine. The rich become richer.


Based on what? You have completely contradicted yourself. You started this thread by saying this property in Sun Peaks was on the market by a "Asian" in "Vancouver." You continued the thread by saying Vancouver is going to witness massive drops. So, your argument would suggest Sun Peaks will soon be inundated by desperate vendors desperate to sell in Sun Peaks to pay off their underwater mortgages in Vancouver?

And WTF would I pay 100% cash if I can get a mortgage at 2.99%? I would rather carry the cash and use the banks money! Stupid advice IMO.

semven wrote:Whats housing prices to income in Vancouver? 11x. 11x


What is the price to income ratio on a million dollar recreation property in Sun Peaks? I'm guessing the average wage is $15 an hour up there? :lol: Assuming the ski bums up there are making 20K a year, that's a 50X price to income ratio on your property! See, I can twist stats to make stupid arguments too! :lol:

Assuming you are right about Canada being totally overpriced due to these macro global issues, based on your own argument you bought in Sun Peaks WAY TO EARLY! These recreation properties will be going for 1/2 price if your dream is realized and billions of dollars of equity are wiped out in the Lower Mainland, and you sir, will have just lost HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS on this investment. Besides, why didn't you just rent out that chalet for the couple of months of the year you'll be using it? Didn't you get the memo from our friends from the South?
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby semven » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:28 am

Whats housing prices to income in Vancouver? 11x. 11x! You wont have the income to service the loans. No different from Greece, Spain and Italy now face, Japan will face in the next few years and the USA in 4-5 years if not sooner.



Actually that was Taipans nugget. I agree with GBig. How can you make an argument for the appreciation of "toys" (eg rec properties) When arguing 50% writedowns for functional RE (principle residences)
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby Taipan » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:56 pm

gobigorgohome wrote:
Taipan wrote:And what happened when hyperinflation set in? Interest rates went through the roof. Now if you purchased like me at 2005 values with cash and no debt youll be fine. The rich become richer.


Based on what? You have completely contradicted yourself. You started this thread by saying this property in Sun Peaks was on the market by a "Asian" in "Vancouver." You continued the thread by saying Vancouver is going to witness massive drops. So, your argument would suggest Sun Peaks will soon be inundated by desperate vendors desperate to sell in Sun Peaks to pay off their underwater mortgages in Vancouver?

And WTF would I pay 100% cash if I can get a mortgage at 2.99%? I would rather carry the cash and use the banks money! Stupid advice IMO.

semven wrote:Whats housing prices to income in Vancouver? 11x. 11x


What is the price to income ratio on a million dollar recreation property in Sun Peaks? I'm guessing the average wage is $15 an hour up there? :lol: Assuming the ski bums up there are making 20K a year, that's a 50X price to income ratio on your property! See, I can twist stats to make stupid arguments too! :lol:

Assuming you are right about Canada being totally overpriced due to these macro global issues, based on your own argument you bought in Sun Peaks WAY TO EARLY! These recreation properties will be going for 1/2 price if your dream is realized and billions of dollars of equity are wiped out in the Lower Mainland, and you sir, will have just lost HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS on this investment. Besides, why didn't you just rent out that chalet for the couple of months of the year you'll be using it? Didn't you get the memo from our friends from the South?


See you cant even understand what has been written right in front of you. I didnt contradict myself in any way. Youd just like to think that.

Our little asian mate from Vancouver bought the property in Jan 2006. Like all delusional Vancouver property owners, he took his mania to the mountain. By June 2008 he had relisted it at $1,250,000. He then increased it to $1,290,000. And nobody bought. Whats it worth? Around what he paid for it back in 2006.

When GFC1 hit buyers in general deserted the market, and properties languished on the market for 2,3,4 years until they were priced at pre gfc prices. They fell back to the long term value, not up the mania line where Vancouver is.

So you can borrow at 2.99% for properties up there can you? Not what im hearing from on the ground. Very low LVR's (eg only 40% - 50%) or no loans at all. Its what I expected would happen. Its what always happens, and any old developers would know that. Thats why i was in cash.

Now 3 important points. Lets see whether you can pay attention. :roll: I doubt it.

If you understand property dynamics you will know that booms expand from the centre out. eg Vancouver and Toronto and Calgary etc. Then when the bust comes, it contracts back in to the centre so the last place to be crunched is the centre of the circle. Thats whats happening now. You see the problems all around BC. And places in the outside of the circle are already back or approaching back to sensible levels.

Secondly Gbig That means other provincial areas wont fall dramatically when Vancouver crashes because they already have fallen back, from 2008 and they didnt rise stupidly from 2008 on. Its like your friends from south of the border saying, I told you so, weve already had the pain, and your country cousins we told you so, we have already had the pain. And smug arse Vancouverites saying no, no its different here!

Third for mousey. I use debt in my business. I dont use debt on my house, or my toys, cars and rec properties. For those I use cash.

The property Ive bought has never been for rent. Its not an investment the way you think about all properties. I expect to see no appreciation in value for a decade. In fact it might even slip back another 10%. But what it wont do is fall 50%! Now mousey I have income producing investment properties. I dont live in them. They produce real income every monthy so if I wished I could retire today, in fact at 52 im semi retired. Ill spend up to 6 months a year up there and it will be passed along to my children and my grand children.
Geezer: "What if somebody listened to Taipan and doesnt buy".

Well, they will thank their lucky stars, that they arent one of the thousands of miserable souls who cant sell their properties in 2013!
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Re: Buying for Value – A bears tale!

Postby eyesthebye » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:34 pm

sorry taipan - rec property is the first to go.
If shite hits the fan in Vancouver all those wealthy fucks here will dump their rec property in a heartbeat.
Also, check the price of oil in relation to rec property. Since Albertans are the biggest buyer of BC rec property
you can be sure you bought your Sun Peaks at, uh, peak. When oil falls so will your property value
the cure for higher prices is moving to a destination with lower prices
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