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Demonizer
Real Estate Talker
Topic Author
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:06 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:57 pm

westcoastfella wrote:
Demonizer wrote:
you have some points but some of these discriminatory practices need to stop.
even though caucasians do hold the majority of government jobs there are non caucasian faces showing up all the time.
however things like voting and such most canadian people don't even care about. 
  • they cannot vote in our elections (no one cares, if voting really mattered they wouldn't let us do it)
  • they cannot run for office provincially or federally (no one cares not many running for office anyways)
  • they pay extra money to go to our universities (no one cares but they should at this unethical practice)
  • they must live in Canada for a certain amount of time (no one cares)
  • their PR or less status can be revoked at any time (no one cares)
  • they accept that Canadian citizens get preference for employment (no one cares, they start own business)
  • they cannot hold national government jobs (no one cares, not a desired job)
  • they have to pay an extra tax to buy a home (people care because it is a legalized theft)

I'm not sure what to say... if you don't care about being able to participate in the country you decide to call home, why should Canadians care about you?  If that's the attitude of most of the new Canadians from China, I'd have no problem raising the house tax even further.  At least it would help to weed out the foreigners that just want to come here, own real estate, and not contribute anything further.

the point of this article is not to illustrate the foreign tax,

it's to illustrate that the intent of the tax was a bit misguided and are hurting innocent people.

but it's not surprising, there are a lot of hurt inflicted on innocent people.

you can be stuck at a stoplight and you pick up your phone to look at it and will be dinged with a $367 fine.

so just because something is commonly discriminatory, it does not mean it is right.

The interesting thing here is that you seem to equate "tax" with "punishment".  

Taxes are a necessity for a social welfare state like Canada.  Most of the things that you (I'm assuming you are an immigrant) like about Canada are there because of taxes.  They are not put into place to punish people.  Fines are for punishment, and are designed to deter behaviour that we as a society don't want to condone.

another issue is that even if you are not a foreign buyer subject to a 15% tax, you will still be labeled a foreigner regardless. that's the problem. the false imagery represented of what a canadian and what a foreigner is. on paper it's easy, in real life, not so easy to differentiate, distinguish and identify.

labeling certain people the perpetual foreigner, 

and also have been subjected to model minority myths which limit their accessibility to services, help and support

you face more discrimination with police, medical service, law service, etc etc. the list goes on.

I don't think that most people have a predisposed image of what "Canadian" is anymore - there are Canadians of all colours and identities now, and the country is fundamentally different than it was even 20 years ago.  We're pretty egalitarian as countries go.

Your own views, biases and prejudices... they sound more like YOU problems than general problems.

the foreigners that just want to come here, own real estate, and not contribute anything further.

this is highly simplified logic. come on. that's a bit extreme. property taxes, sales taxes on luxury goods and eating out all the time, when you combine those taxes it's more than the typical canadian pays so how can anyone say these people don't contribute. that's insulting to think that. 

so what you are insinuating is the existing people here are contributing any more? those welfares on disability and thieving and stealing are contributing???? 

you can't say that someone buying a home here is not contributing. they contributed a vast sum of money and the seller is ecstatic. he will spend this new money entering canada. 

foreign money is new money that never existed in canada in the first place. end of story. like it or not, your welfare voices literally have no voice or say to tell and question anyone what their contribution is when they themselves have contributed little. 

furthermore, should money made outside of canada mean it should be taxed by canada? it's being spent here already, but taxed? that's not right

"Taxes are a necessity for a social welfare state like Canada."

yes taxes are necessary to run a country but excessive tax and excessive waste is too commonplace. that is why they don't deserve most tax dollars they get as it is already.

there was no income tax before the world war, there was no property transfer tax before, i don't think there was even sales tax.

taxes are mostly a scam.

heck they tax every time a house or car changes hands hundreds of times if they could.

Fk taxes! 
 
reallyreal2
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:30 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:08 pm

Demonizer wrote:
westcoastfella wrote:
Demonizer wrote:
this is getting off topic. the original intent of the article is not about a 15% foreign buyers tax. 

the whole original article was to point out that hardworking successful technicians, scientists and businessmen, people (ie. Chinese or of Chinese/Asian heritage) are being targeted as scapegoats to housing unaffordability for locals.

it is partially true but that is not the only demand for housing. it's not just foreigners either.

it's everyone. 

from all over. not just China

"None of the people interviewed by The Globe are, by their account, big real-estate investors, vacant-house owners, the parents of spoiled rich kids, investors parking their money here as a hedge, or corrupt Communist Party officials – the mainland Chinese stock characters that appear most often in local media."

The whole point of my original rebuttal was that this view is bullshit.  Everyone knows that its all foreigners, and this tax correctly targets all foreigners equally.  The only people that seem to think this is all about the Chinese are a) the media, and b) the Chinese community.  Unfortunately, constantly being featured in the media (for good or bad reasons) does not help.

how can you be so sure? there are wealthy people in canada too. not to mention the TSX venture exchange is in vancouver so many executives are here. lawyers, accountants, shipping/trade companies in this port city. I think that the complaints by the many lower middle class to poor will always be there, chinese buyers or not. let's not let them target the chinese when we know full well that chinese aren't the only people that are successfully buying homes. that's akin to the model minority myth. where the perception of chinese is skewed into some boogieman definition. they are denied fair treatment by many, denied if they have any problems or issues, not treated fairly by police, law, medical practitioners, not all but in general the model minority myth is damaging to those who need help the most. and it even gives unwarranted punishment. Police will more than likely give you a ticket instead of a warning simply because they think you can afford it.

If it ain't the Chinese that's causing the high prices, then the tax shouldn't change anything.  As you were.
 
reallyreal2
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:30 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:09 pm

VanLord wrote:
Demonizer wrote:
westcoastfella wrote:
The whole point of my original rebuttal was that this view is bullshit.  Everyone knows that its all foreigners, and this tax correctly targets all foreigners equally.  The only people that seem to think this is all about the Chinese are a) the media, and b) the Chinese community.  Unfortunately, constantly being featured in the media (for good or bad reasons) does not help.

you see it, but the average tom dick and harry could even lash out into hate crimes due to the hysteria surrounding chinese buyers. there is already clearly more racist hate crimes on the rise.

Where are these so called racist hate crimes that you speak of in Vancouver?   

They don't exist anywhere but demonizer's mind.  I think he should get back on his medication pretty soon  :D
 
reallyreal2
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Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:30 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:14 pm

Demonizer wrote:
VanLord wrote:
Demonizer wrote:

the new face of Canada is emerging and it's a good thing. the previous occupants fucked up.

Sounds like you are pretty racist, most of your comments in this section have racist undertones.  Canada may not be perfect but its been a pretty great place for many years, if its so fucked up, why are all these people trying to come live here. 

i'm a product of my environment, i can't help but be a bit racist. i grew up around white boys my entire life so i see the problems are even worse coming from that end. Canada is great, don't get me wrong. i'm born and raised. but are still made to feel foreign so you face some identity issues and feeling that you do not belong or are accepted. this is common amongst first generation canadians and even those who have been here for many generations. that's the perpetual foreigner mentality. as long as there are idiots like reallyreall, this wont end until they get called out on their bs and  snuffed out. regarding your question about why people want to come live here, i cannot fully answer that question as i didn't "come" here. but i have heard from a korean guy that it's like paradise and the air is clean, good water/food, more space etc.

LOL - maybe you need some new friends.... or friends, can't believe you would have any right now.
:D
Let me guess - you went all in on the real estate will only go up to the moon boat and now that the government has (correctly) attempted to step in a protect the citizens that elected them, your bottom line is being drastically effected.  Don't pretend that you are some Robin Hood looking out for the interests of the poor foreigners - you are interested only in the size of your bank account.
Good luck with that.
I was having a chat with someone in RE industry and they were saying there are a lot of long faces on some of his realtor buddies - many of them had only become realtors in the recent past and can only imagine an industry where they list a property, put their feet up and collect a cheque.  LOL - those times are long gone.  Time to earn your keep.   :D
 
Demonizer
Real Estate Talker
Topic Author
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:06 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:20 pm

reallyreal2 wrote:
Demonizer wrote:
westcoastfella wrote:
The whole point of my original rebuttal was that this view is bullshit.  Everyone knows that its all foreigners, and this tax correctly targets all foreigners equally.  The only people that seem to think this is all about the Chinese are a) the media, and b) the Chinese community.  Unfortunately, constantly being featured in the media (for good or bad reasons) does not help.

how can you be so sure? there are wealthy people in canada too. not to mention the TSX venture exchange is in vancouver so many executives are here. lawyers, accountants, shipping/trade companies in this port city. I think that the complaints by the many lower middle class to poor will always be there, chinese buyers or not. let's not let them target the chinese when we know full well that chinese aren't the only people that are successfully buying homes. that's akin to the model minority myth. where the perception of chinese is skewed into some boogieman definition. they are denied fair treatment by many, denied if they have any problems or issues, not treated fairly by police, law, medical practitioners, not all but in general the model minority myth is damaging to those who need help the most. and it even gives unwarranted punishment. Police will more than likely give you a ticket instead of a warning simply because they think you can afford it.

If it ain't the Chinese that's causing the high prices, then the tax shouldn't change anything.  As you were.

it isn't going to change anything. the only reason why sales slowed is because everyone is waiting to see what's going to happen. frozen. like a deer in headlights

one of the main issues at hand is the squandering of all taxes. so now we introduce another tax for them to squander. we don't have enough roads or bridges. and they toll the bridge? if anything, that's what we pay our taxes for. for bridges, not to be re-taxed again by tolls.

we need more accountability and fiscal responsibility. and more transparency with regards to where our tax dollars are being spent.
Last edited by Demonizer on Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
reallyreal2
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:30 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:23 pm

Demonizer wrote:
reallyreal2 wrote:
Demonizer wrote:
how can you be so sure? there are wealthy people in canada too. not to mention the TSX venture exchange is in vancouver so many executives are here. lawyers, accountants, shipping/trade companies in this port city. I think that the complaints by the many lower middle class to poor will always be there, chinese buyers or not. let's not let them target the chinese when we know full well that chinese aren't the only people that are successfully buying homes. that's akin to the model minority myth. where the perception of chinese is skewed into some boogieman definition. they are denied fair treatment by many, denied if they have any problems or issues, not treated fairly by police, law, medical practitioners, not all but in general the model minority myth is damaging to those who need help the most. and it even gives unwarranted punishment. Police will more than likely give you a ticket instead of a warning simply because they think you can afford it.

If it ain't the Chinese that's causing the high prices, then the tax shouldn't change anything.  As you were.

it isn't going to change anything. the only reason why sales slowed is because everyone is waiting to see what's going to happen. frozen. like a deer in headlights

one of the main issues at hand is the squandering of all taxes. so now we introduce another tax for them to squander. we don't have enough roads or bridges. and they toll the bridge? if anything, that's what we pay our taxes for. for bridges, not to be re-taxed again by tolls.

then you should consider this a great buying opportunity.  not crying about it.
 
Demonizer
Real Estate Talker
Topic Author
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:06 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:26 pm

is this tax going to make homes more affordable and especially at the entry level?

no, of course not.

the politicians are laughing all the way to the bank at the expense of all the peons they've fooled.

agreeing and loving this new taxes is just stupid and no different than just intentionally hurting someone. basically theft/robbery for the sake of punishing someone for doing nothing wrong.

the day will come when all the whiners will get hit with something like this. it already is happening. it's backfiring, the cost of the tax will just be tacked on top of the home price for the next buyer. the cost will just get passed along to the next buyer. and again the government will laugh all the way to the bank.

thanks for nothing assholes.
 
reallyreal2
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:30 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:32 pm

Demonizer wrote:
is this tax going to make homes more affordable and especially at the entry level?

no, of course not.

the politicians are laughing all the way to the bank at the expense of all the peons they've fooled.

agreeing and loving this new taxes is just stupid and no different than just intentionally hurting someone. basically theft/robbery for the sake of punishing someone for doing nothing wrong.

the day will come when all the whiners will get hit with something like this. it already is happening. it's backfiring, the cost of the tax will just be tacked on top of the home price for the next buyer. the cost will just get passed along to the next buyer. and again the government will laugh all the way to the bank.

thanks for nothing assholes.

I wish I lived in this fantasy world you come from - it's amusing.
 
Geyser
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 3529
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: In a van down by the river

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:46 pm

Demonized posted:
"the foreigners that just want to come here, own real estate, and not contribute anything further."

this is highly simplified logic. come on. that's a bit extreme. property taxes, sales taxes on luxury goods and eating out all the time, when you combine those taxes it's more than the typical canadian pays so how can anyone say these people don't contribute. that's insulting to think that. 
             ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Geyser reply:
I'm an old white guy but I still think racism sucks!  It is usually. the product of frustrated losers with small minds, and it reflects their own deep insecurity. And BTW, as a white guy I've felt the sting of racism in several non-white countries where whites are not at all welcome. It seems that such ignorance can be universal.

Having said that, I do understand the widespread resentment of seeing foreigners (of any race) installing their families in luxury homes and then going back overseas to make large incomes which go unreported to CRA. Sure they pay property taxes, PST and GST but does that really cover the costs of Fire & Police services, our infrastructure costs, the educational costs of several children and the medical costs of not just the kids, but also the mother and in some case the grandparents too? There are legitimate reasons for the anger, it's largely the deliberate tax evasion.

If any legitimate, law abiding family emigrates here they are not subject to the new 15% tax because they are Permanent Residents and are (or at least should be) taxed on their full global income. Unfortunately it has become clear that many have been gaming the system by hiding the overseas portion of the family income.

I see no problem with imposing a tax on folks who are not Citizens or Permanent Residents, just like so many other places do.

BTW, I'm a homeowner who has done quite nicely with local and overseas real estate over the last four plus decades, but like many of my home owning friends, I do think our market is in way too much of a bubble and all of us, owners and renters, should be concerned about social cohesion and the future of our city.

How happy can a homeowner be about his/her paper profits when his/her children are priced out of the city?
 
Demonizer
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Topic Author
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:06 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:05 pm

geyser, i see your point.

but a lot of them aren't here most of the time they wont be using too much infrastructure services.

of course no one likes a drain on education system or medical system but many local people do drain it and they don't pay any or much tax either. 

all i'm saying is it's wrong to make up a list of bad stuff and then project it onto these people.

it's just suspicion most of the time or some fabricated worse case scenario. 

does what you say happen? sure it does but i think it's a bit exaggerated and not as much as people are led to believe.

last time i checked, Vancouver has falling school enrollment. 

with regards to police and fire protection, how often do people really need that. firemen are well paid and have it easy most of the time. how many firemen are there really?

and medical care for sick and dying is just human decency and respect for the suffering. that is something that costs regardless. whether it's our population of 35 million people or 36 million even. no real major difference when you look at the numbers. 

i think the grandma, grandpa abusing medical system accusations are over exaggerated.

with regards to children priced out of the city, they already are, even the parents. that's why they move to burbs like langley and abbotsford.
 
VanLord
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:52 pm

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:07 pm

Demonizer wrote:
reallyreal2:
Demonizer wrote:
how can you be so sure? there are wealthy people in canada too. not to mention the TSX venture exchange is in vancouver so many executives are here. lawyers, accountants, shipping/trade companies in this port city. I think that the complaints by the many lower middle class to poor will always be there, chinese buyers or not. let's not let them target the chinese when we know full well that chinese aren't the only people that are successfully buying homes. that's akin to the model minority myth. where the perception of chinese is skewed into some boogieman definition. they are denied fair treatment by many, denied if they have any problems or issues, not treated fairly by police, law, medical practitioners, not all but in general the model minority myth is damaging to those who need help the most. and it even gives unwarranted punishment. Police will more than likely give you a ticket instead of a warning simply because they think you can afford it.

If it ain't the Chinese that's causing the high prices, then the tax shouldn't change anything.  As you were.
it isn't going to change anything. the only reason why sales slowed is because everyone is waiting to see what's going to happen. frozen. like a deer in headlights

one of the main issues at hand is the squandering of all taxes. so now we introduce another tax for them to squander. we don't have enough roads or bridges. and they toll the bridge? if anything, that's what we pay our taxes for. for bridges, not to be re-taxed again by tolls.

we need more accountability and fiscal responsibility. and more transparency with regards to where our tax dollars are being spent.

Now I agree with this post...unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anyway to fix the current state of affairs and it appears to only be getting worse...US Election, Brexit, BC's one party system, etc.
 
reallyreal2
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:30 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:17 pm

Seems like even the Chinese agree.

Demonizer seems to have ZERO friends.

http://vancouversun.com/business/real-e ... ese-buyers
 
westcoastfella
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 1574
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:11 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:17 pm

Demonizer wrote:
the foreigners that just want to come here, own real estate, and not contribute anything further.

this is highly simplified logic. come on. that's a bit extreme. property taxes, sales taxes on luxury goods and eating out all the time, when you combine those taxes it's more than the typical canadian pays so how can anyone say these people don't contribute. that's insulting to think that. 

I was being overly simplified.  There are foreigners that do come here and contribute, and those that don't.  I'd argue that a group of rich retirees contributes less than most working people - the taxes you mention above are paid by anyone that lives here and owns a home - I paid a transfer tax and legal fees, I buy luxuries, I eat out a lot.  However, working people have the advantage of paying additional taxes - on income year after year after year - that most retirees don't pay.  Especially ones that can hide income in other jurisdictions, and effectively report zero or close to zero to CRA.  If given the choice between a bunch of younger immigrant professionals and a bunch of rich retirees, I'd certainly choose to fill my country with the former.

Your argument about ongoing consumption taxes is fair, but then you had to remind us all....

but a lot of them aren't here most of the time they wont be using too much infrastructure services.

Which sort of defeats your argument.  If they're not actually here all the time, then they're not actually consuming much here and are not actually paying much in the way of taxes.

So now I have a choice between a bunch of foreign working professionals that plant roots and contribute, and a bunch of retirees that show up, generate a single economic event by buying homes, and then promptly leave for long periods of time.  They don't really contribute anything to our fabric... so while the people in the article seem like really nice people, lets not pretend that they're particularly good for Canada's economy on the whole.
 
yzfr1
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:35 pm

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:14 am

Foreign money and investment has kept the Canadian economy form imploding for many years. It has been a stimulus during some rough years.. however it's like the old saying "pissing yourself to stay warm" we can't rely on this money coming in forever to prop up the system. It's not sustainable and is like quantitative easing, sooner or later something will give.

What all of this money has done for us is buy us time. We should be focused on long term solutions, building infrastructure and welcoming talent to taper off foreign income into sustainable real economic growth.

It's crazy to think Vancouver is sustainable as is long term. 2 million for east van house? 2.5 million?

Everyone has been drinking the real estate collaid.. we can continue to drink or start sobbering up before it gets worst.
 
tdma800
Real Estate Talker
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:12 am

Re: The dragon in the room: Hostility toward rich, Chinese newcomers

Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:09 pm

Demonizer wrote:
is this tax going to make homes more affordable and especially at the entry level?

no, of course not.

the politicians are laughing all the way to the bank at the expense of all the peons they've fooled.

agreeing and loving this new taxes is just stupid and no different than just intentionally hurting someone. basically theft/robbery for the sake of punishing someone for doing nothing wrong.

the day will come when all the whiners will get hit with something like this. it already is happening. it's backfiring, the cost of the tax will just be tacked on top of the home price for the next buyer. the cost will just get passed along to the next buyer. and again the government will laugh all the way to the bank.

thanks for nothing assholes.

generally speaking its more interesting watching the people say kids are entitled to a discount house
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